Hmmmmm.

Domestic discipline (DD)

Tevemer mentioned that she thinks that there is no difference between Taken In Hand and domestic discipline (DD) and that I disagree. Louise said that she thinks that the only difference is that a Taken In Hand relationship need not necessarily involve domestic discipline. So I thought I should explain what I see as the differences. (Criticisms welcome.)
First, let me stress that of all the different types of forums I have found so far apart from Taken In Hand, I feel most in tune with DD (domestic discipline) ones, such as 1domesticdiscipline. Indeed, many writers and posters post on that and other DD lists frequently.
I really like the thoughtfulness of the DD community, its focus on deeply-intimate long-term relationships rather than casual sex, and the fact that it is about improving relationships rather than sex per se. I share with most DD folk a preference for real control over role playing (though playing can be fun); and I also am with people in the domestic discipline community in seeing no need for safewords in the general course of life – my life, anyway.
Finally, I also like the fact that there is very little talk on most domestic discipline (DD) forums about service-orientated submission, ‘becoming a better submissive’ or ‘slave training’. Like many DD people, I do not consider myself BDSM. (Not that I have anything against these things – to each his own.) I like the fact that men in the DD community seem to take in their stride or even enjoy (rather than get angry or upset about) a little resistance now and again.
My quibbles with domestic discipline are just that – quibbles rather than anything more damning. There is a lot of common ground between Taken In Hand and the domestic discipline (DD) community. I happen to know that many who consider themselves DD agree with me but still consider themselves DD. So please keep all this in mind when you read the following comments.
My problem with domestic discipline (DD) is partly a matter of finding some statements or definitions of it embarrassingly deluded and logically and philosophically unsound, but it is mainly a matter of having a slightly different focus from that of the domestic discipline (DD) community.
To take the second bit first, the focus of Taken In Hand is on the idea of living under the control of a man – not because men are superior, or biology or the Bible dictates it, but just because it is our (Taken In Hand folks') preference. And the more in control the man is, the better, as far as I am concerned. It is erotic. It feels right. (If anyone jumps to the conclusion that I am saying that other preferences are wrong, I will feel like using intemperate language in exasperation at their wilful misunderstanding!)
The focus of the domestic discipline (DD) community is slightly different. The discussions on DD forums tend to be tightly focused on ‘discipline’, lists of rules and infractions, ‘accountability’, ‘boundaries, limits and guidelines’, ‘misbehaviour’, ‘consistency’, and punishment, and how all this allegedly helps women's behaviour improve.
Except that it doesn't. Or at least, there seems to be a rather worrying tendency for many women writing to become ever more ‘naughty’ and childish, getting ever more ‘discipline’, and it looks to me as though this whole thing could be destructive unless the woman happens to be with a man who is also aroused by the idea of having a recalcitrant child for a wife. I fear that some men might get thoroughly sick of that. Here is an example of the sort of post that troubles me. I could be mistaken, but to me, this woman sounds like a ‘naughty child’ talking about being in trouble with a parent:

I was already a little nervous that lost my husband's debit card because I did not put it in my wallet like I know I am supposed to do and he has told me to many times before. By the time we called it in missing somebody had already spent $75 on it. I knew I was in big trouble then. When I got home he wouldn't even talk to me cus he was so mad at me.

For those who like this kind of thing, great! But if so then I think it is a mistake to try to claim that what they are doing is really about behaviour modification. It clearly isn't. It is how they connect erotically, that's all. There is nothing wrong with that; I just find the ostensible explanations people give for what they are doing transparently false.
There seems to be quite a lot of self-delusion in the domestic discipline community. As argued in these articles and these articles, the idea that domestic discipline of women is just like parents spanking their children is patently false.
Children do not crave punishment, they hate it. You have only to look at any forum in the domestic discipline community to see that it is usually the woman who is positively craving and begging for a man's authority and ‘discipline’. The idea that the woman hates ‘domestic discipline’ like a child hates being spanked is laughable. If you want to know what it means to hate being beaten, go to a battered women's refuge and talk to a battered wife who has escaped her abuser. Her state of mind bears no resemblance to the state of mind of a woman who is wholeheartedly choosing to be in a relationship in which the man is in control and expresses it physically sometimes. She wants this relationship, and she wants the ‘discipline’, painful and even scary though it may be at the time. She would not want to be with a man who would not do that. The battered wife would love her husband not to do that. Many in the DD community are in denial about this, in my opinion.
I personally do not have a discipline fetish and am about as interested in spanking as I am in knitting, and I do not fantasise about writing lines, being made to stand in the corner, ‘loss of computer privileges’ or other infantalising ‘punishments’. So for me personally, the focus of DD forums on ‘discipline’ and punishment and spanking is a bit off. The only respect in which I have any interest in spanking is if it is the way a man is expressing his control, as in this article. Otherwise I find the whole idea altogether boring. I am not a spanko.
Nor am I a woman who needs discipline, ‘domestic’ or otherwise. I am a fully-functioning, competent, able adult whose parents were sticklers for formal etiquette. I know how behave impeccably, and I don't need a good thrashing to ‘teach me the errors of my ways’, any more than any man does (and quite possibly a good deal less!). I cannot remotely identify with the idea that women are out-of-control childish creatures in need of a firm hand, while men are paragons of self-control and all other virtues in the known universe and quite possibly a few more besides. We are all human beings; we all make mistakes; and I don't think it is helpful to pedastalise men in this way.
The idea that being taken in hand is about women being inferior to men, or being faulty, out of control, over-emotional, irrational and in need of ‘help’ which men are somehow not in need of just doesn't add up. I am not those things but still I have a strong desire to be under the authority of a man. It is not that Taken In Hand women need ‘help’, it is that we have a deep desire to be under a man's control.
Men are fallible human beings too, and they make mistakes just as women do. So when I read writing on domestic discipline forums that seems to imply that the man should be in control because he is better than the woman or knows more, I cannot associate myself with the idea of domestic discipline.
In addition, the idea that “might makes right” is a huge mistake, philosophically. Being bigger and stronger does not mean you know more. It does not mean that you are more likely to be right than someone less strong, it just means that you have the edge in terms of physical control. Might does not make right, it is just more fun!
The idea that knowledge can be imparted through the buttocks is, er, entertaining, perhaps, but it is a veritable can of worms epistemologically (that is to say, in terms of the philosophy of knowledge). Behaviourist conditioning can work for animals but human beings are much more complex mentally – we have minds and think, and knowledge is gained through thought, not the buttocks. (This is not to say that a good thrashing has zero effect, merely that its effects are not the simple, direct, behaviourist conditioning effects many DD folk think they are. See this article for some of my thoughts on that subject.)
For me, a man being in control is nothing to do with the tiresome-sounding task of improving a faulty woman, it is about creating a vibrant, thrilling, deeply fulfilling relationship which remains sexually fulfilling and never descends into the stale platonic buddy type relationship that is so common in society at large. For me, being under a man's authority is about retaining our awareness of one another as being different from each other. It is about being aware of myself as a woman, and being aware of the man as being a man rather than sexless/unisex. It is about being true to myself as a woman with a desire to be with a man who needs to be in control in an intimate relationship, it has little or nothing to do with needing ‘help’ or ‘discipline’.
It is worth noting, though, that the husbands in DD relationships do appear to be loving, caring and focused on their wives rather than being the self-serving narcissists appearing to inhabit the D/s world – at least, if their respective posts and forums are anything to go by. DD may glorify ‘misbehaviour’ on the part of women (groan), but (unlike much of the D/s community) it does not glorify self-serving narcissism on the part of men. I like the fact that Taken In Hand encourages both husbands and wives to be kind and considerate to one another, and to take responsibility for their own actions.
Another problem I personally have with domestic discipline is that the heavy focus of DD forums on ‘discipline’ is at the expense of all other forms of expressing control. I personally would like to see a more general focus on the idea of the man's authority and control instead of on punishment and in particular, spanking. When spanking is the focus, people seem to lose sight of more subtle forms of control, and indeed, more extreme forms of control.
Some readers reacted very badly when I posted my When rape is a gift article, objecting to the fact that (as they saw it) I was going off-topic. (?!?) The same thing happened to a lesser extent when I posted my The alpha male and masculine power article. Similarly, when DeeMarie wrote about Asserting dominance physically forcefully, there were complaints from DD people and others that her article was discussing something other than spanking. And whenever anyone posts about the allure of feeling fear or trepidation in connection with a man, or about anything remotely ‘extreme’, or the idea of ownership, possession, obedience, or even about the kind of submission described in books like Fascinating Womanhood) DD people complain. There is such a narrowness in the domestic discipline community!
A woman once told me that the reason she no longer posts on DD lists is because she found that when she was reading DD material, her own focus narrowed and she did not like that. I have noticed the same thing. That is why I do not read much domestic discipline stuff myself any more.
Having said all that though, I strongly disagree with criticisms I have read of domestic discipline saying that it is abusive, non-consensual, unloving, irresponsible and the like. It seems to me a genuine and very successful attempt to create ways of being in long-term relationships that are fulfilling and exciting. Moreover, my misgivings above notwithstanding, I think it is true that domestic discipline can (for those for whom it has appeal) solve problems and bring peace and harmony to many relationships, for the reasons I gave here. It is a fact that for those who like it (and even for me!) being physically taken in hand by the man one loves can be cathartic and soothing, it can make one feel submissive, and it can be very connecting.
the boss
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